•‘How El-Rufai left Kaduna more divided’ •Says Atiku, Obi saved ‘us a lot of headaches’ •Tinubu is not a magician’

By Chioma Gabriel, Editor, Special Features and Dickson Omobola

General Zamani Lekwot (retd), a former Military Governor of Rivers State, is the Chairman of Southern Kaduna Elders Forum. Lekwot is also the Chairman of Middle Belt Elders Forum. In this interview, he speaks on the Southern Kaduna crisis and how the actions of former Governor Nasir El-Rufai appeared to have fuelled it. He also speaks on how former President Muhammadu, despite being an Army General, failed to use the opportunity provided by the 2014 National Conference without examining the report. Excerpts:

What is the issue on ground in Southern Kaduna and how can restructuring help, not just in Southern Kaduna but also across Nigeria?

Well, Southern Kaduna citizens have lived in peace over the years. We managed our differences with other Nigerians that have found it necessary to come and live with us. Things were going well until (Mallam Nasir) El-Rufai emerged as governor with an agenda to divide the state. In a recent video clip, he confessed that his agenda was to Islamise Southern Kaduna. Fortunately for us, religion is not an issue because Islam and Christianity, even on the world plane, are the two closest religions with Jesus as a common prophet. For El-Rufai to come with this type of negative agenda was a big surprise.

He decided to have nothing to do with Southern Kaduna. What crime did we commit? No crime at all. He also confessed that even at the national level, they used bandits to win the election in 2015. When he assumed office here, he also confessed that he knew where the bandits came from. He went to where they were to pay them money to stop killing Southern Kaduna people, which made the situation worse.

In the end, he left the state more divided on tribal and religious lines. I said somewhere in a recent interview that in Southern Kaduna, many family compounds have both Muslims and Christians and, in some instances, traditional religion people. We have no problem at all. He planted that seed of discord and, since he left, I am happy to say with the change in government, the tempo of killings and destruction of villages has drastically reduced because of the current positive posture of Senator Uba Sani who is his successor. In fact, he has come up with an initiative to set up a meeting between elders from Northern Kaduna and Southern Kaduna. We have held two meetings, and we were very successful. Ray of sunshine has appeared at the end of the tunnel. We are ever-ready to cooperate with whomever God puts on top of us as governor. On the national plane in respect of the restructuring issue, I was a member of the 2014 National Conference. We took a global look at this issue.

The British ruled us for many years and the template they left behind was based on their experience at home. Three regions were created with semi-autonomy when independence came in 1960. In 1963 specifically, the Mid-West region was created. Things were going relatively smooth until the first coup came to dissolve the regions and the rest is history. A complex federation like Nigeria needs special arrangement. Borrowing a leaf from abroad, the largest democracy in the world is India with a population of about 1.3 or 4 billion people. Their setup is very unique. Brazil is another federation.

The idea of restructuring is to correct the mistakes of the past because our current system including the constitution isn’t functioning well due to hitches here and there. States were created by the military regimes. From that time, we have seen that state creation is a versatile vehicle for rapid development. Since things are not working properly, let us rearrange. In that regard, the 2014 National Conference report made some recommendations and the recommendations are all-embracing. What is needed now is for the current government to take a look at that report and choose what it can implement. The creation of a few states was recommended and adjustment of boundaries here and there was also recommended. So, the whole aim is to carry every group along and of course sit down and exchange views with a view to charting a more credible way forward. I think that isn’t too much. If we don’t do that, we are going to face what we are facing because democracy is all about listening, compromising and crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s.

Will fragmenting in the spirit of favouring the minorities solve the problem?

The overall aim is to ensure equity and justice. Creating more states or adjusting boundaries cannot add to the problem. When the Mid-West Region was created, progress started. Later, when the military created more states, it was divided into two. Go there and see the development that took place. It is not possible to grant every ethnic group a state as such, but an appropriate regrouping will enhance the authenticity of democracy.

To quote one expert, democracy is based on equity and justice and that is what promotes peace. I will take you back to the British model where you have the English, the Scottish, the Welsh and the Irish. Great Britain has been managing their differences well. That was the template they left behind. So, given the massive resources Nigeria has, restructuring will challenge every group. It will enable each group to rise and take maximum advantage of its resources. What we have now is dependence on the Federal Government because of the oil money which is now dwindling, that leaves the solid minerals and agriculture in rural areas lying dormant. We in Southern Kaduna are saying that we deserve a state in terms of population, landmass and resources and trained manpower. Grant us that state and it would not stop us from cooperating with our brothers in the North. We are still here. The South-West was one region before, so was the South-East. All that the Willink Commission wanted to do according to the report was to create the COR Region and Middle Belt Region. But the report suggested a postponement of granting of independence by two years in order to sort this out.

The political class at that time assured the British that, if given independence, they were going to resolve that. When independence was granted, they didn’t do anything. So, this request of asking the government to take a second look at this is all part of the movement that will promote peace and stability. Granting us a state, like a few others, will not interfere with fellow Nigerians who are already living with us in peace from pursuing their business. If you give us a state, the executive, the judiciary and the legislature, our cultural heritage within the constitution will come into play. I think it is a good idea because one of the great federations is the United States and they have over 50 states. Some states are richer than others, but it is one country. Anywhere you meet an American, he will tell you where he comes from, but he is a proud American.

This is what we should do. We borrowed the presidential system from there, but, unfortunately, we are not using the modalities. They have three types of police – Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI, state and county. Here, we have only the federal police command and they are few on the ground and lack equipment and so on and so forth. The states should be allowed to rearrange their security setup. If we had state police in place today, the level of banditry would not have reached where it is. Given the fact that our political class shouts democracy, some of the things done are anything but democracy. So, the subdivision is meant to reinforce the federal structure.

Why didn’t you make a similar recommendation to former President Muhammadu Buhari who was your colleague in the military and who you must have related with while in office? And what gives you the confidence that President Tinubu will do it? In one of your interviews you said there is no one North. How do you mean? Number three, you were in South Sudan on UN Mission. You have been talking about creation of states and all of that. But after South Sudan was created out Sudan, that didn’t stop the people of South Sudan from fighting among themselves. So, what is the guarantee that if Southern Kaduna gets a state of its own, the infighting among the people will disappear?

Point of correction, I was never in Sudan. I retired from service over 30 years ago. I am an old man managing my life. Two, General Buhari is our colleague; there is no doubt about it. I remember very well when somebody asked him about the 2014 National Conference report, he said he hadn’t read it and had no intention to read and it was for the archives, which was a shocking surprise. By our training as generals, when an issue arises, before we conclude, we have to examine all the manifestations. All he needed to do as I said somewhere was to look at the report or set up a committee to look at the report and choose a few things his government could implement. He did neither. That report’s recommendations contain a lot of practical solutions to our problems. Now, the problems stared him in the eyes. Nevertheless, somewhere down the line, the government set up a committee and El-Rufai, the Kaduna State governor, wrote their own report and gave it a name which I have now forgotten. Since then, no-one has heard about it. In 2015, Buhari’s government promised to restructure the country.

Agreed that many people did not take part in the conference because they didn’t believe it… But since we are running a federation of diverse ethnic nationalities, whether you took part in the conference or not, there will be no harm in looking at what others think. I think the ultimate solution is dialogue, let every group have their say. At the end of the day, in the interest of national unity, the way forward will be found. I think the picture in Sudan is different. Why? Even when they were part of the Republic of Sudan, the ethnic nationalities there never saw eye to eye. They were fighting each other. What dialogue cannot resolve, harmony can only make it worse. Our own case, for example, under then-Northern Nigeria, there were 12 provinces and some were larger than others. For example, we had Zaria Province, Sokoto Province, Kano, Bauchi, Borno, Adamawa and Benue. Sokoto Province now has three states. Restructuring Nigeria is the way to go because it will give an opportunity to correct the mistakes of the past in order to bring Nigeria back to the race so that peace can prevail.

You said security in Southern Kaduna has improved and killings reduced. Can you give us details of how this happened?

Yes, the tempo of killings has gone down because youths have been mobilised on how to gather information and channel it properly. But more fundamental than that is the move made by the Service Chiefs. The CDS and the Chief of Army Staff who was once a GOC here know the ground. They have visited us here, had discussions with the governor, and shared their new strategy with him. Consequently, the governor recruited 7, 000 youths to beef up the strength of vigilante men. They were trained at the police college on information gathering and for preemptive action to be taken. As you know, security is everybody’s business. If information is channeled to the appropriate authorities, preemptive measures can be taken. What, however, is worrying is the occasional cases of kidnapping. Some villagers have been kidnapped from their farms. But I think what the government is doing to empower the security agencies is the right action. So, let’s continue to share information and I think what the Service Chiefs have planned is to take the war to the hideouts of the bandits. Hopefully, we may see light at the end of the tunnel.

Do you think Nigerians would adjust to the issues of the free fall of the Naira and the galloping prices of goods and services, and it appears there is increased insecurity in some parts of the country?

Well, all you have said is right except insecurity. Since the change of government, insecurity has improved not only in Southern Kaduna but also across Nigeria. The invading of villages, killing of villagers, and burning of villages has stopped. What we now have is a few cases of kidnapping. Two weeks ago, it was reported that some school children in Zamfara were kidnapped. Banditry has substantially reduced because of the new strategy the Service Chiefs have formulated. If the government fulfills its promise by empowering them properly, I think there would be a more remarkable improvement. The fall in the Naira value, vis-a-vis the dollar is an issue since we are an import-based economy. The free fall of the Naira has made the rise in the cost of living obvious. The truth is that, given the enormity of the problem the newly elected people inherited, it would take a little while to stabilise things but the government must be up and doing in search of the solution.

One can guess that the situation cannot get worse if the current measures the President and his team have embarked upon are sustained. The appeal to citizens to also participate makes sense because most of the havoc is taking place in the rural areas and we know that because of the size of the country and that of equipment, security people cannot be everywhere. But if communication is improved, when things happen in the rural areas or if people have intelligence about the evil intentions of the bad guys, and if the information is passed through proper channels, security people will be able to carry out preemptive action. So, one is hoping that the situation will continue to improve gradually, that is the prayer.

Many people are critical of Tinubu’s administration; they said he started acting so fast. For instance, they said before removing petrol subsidy, he ought to have put certain things in place to cushion the effect. But it was just like a casual statement made and the thing caught on and Nigerians are now paying dearly for it.

It is a fact that the removal of the fuel subsidy at the time and manner it happened should have not been so. The reason many people have articulated is correct. In order words, he was sworn-in in May, whereas what his predecessors in office had done had a lifespan of up to the end of June. So, the proper thing would have been to lie low, study the situation on the ground, and come up with a strategy that would enable the pinch of that removal to be less.

But the removal was hastily announced without a plan to absorb the fallout. Of course, after the removal, the introduction of the palliatives is correct but there are side effects. The other shocker would have been our four refineries being comatose. If a proper plan had been done, resuscitation of the refineries would have been part and parcel of the palliatives so that if the amount of fuel we are using is substantially produced locally, that would reduce the amount of money paid on importation, especially now that the value of the Naira has gone down. Well, a mistake has been made. We have to live with it and cooperate with the plan that the government has in the works to salvage the situation.

You said something about the refineries. Past governments kept injecting money into the refurbishing of the refineries but nothing is yet to happen.

I have no access to the data but since that is the case, what is required is a quiet investigation to find out what happened before money is released for any project. A market survey would have been done and when the money is quickly released, the road map prepared for its implementation would be followed to the letter. So, if money is released and nothing happens, the story should not end there.

We keep hearing about stolen crude, like Nigerian oil being siphoned. People have accused the navy and other security forces of having a hand in stolen oil…

Well, I have no access to the details. I retired over 30 years ago. I am out of date. But we know that the navy’s job is to patrol our coastline to intercept the vessels that are evacuating stolen crude. I have also heard that. I do not have the data and I am far away in Kaduna. I don’t know the details but once in a while, we see a few ships with crude oil they have intercepted which means they have been doing their best. How much that beat is, I cannot tell. I believe the government has to do more homework in establishing the facts to prescribe a permanent solution.

Nigerians are afraid that by December petrol price may hit N1000/liter or more, and these are the same people earning the same salary and the palliatives are not making any sense in some cases. Many people think that subsidies should be reintroduced.

Well, this is a technical issue. The rising cost of fuel is inevitable because since the value of the Naira has gone down, it means more money is spent on importing fuel. So, the ultimate solution is to resuscitate the refineries as quickly as possible. If that is done, the amount of fuel imported would be substantially reduced. I am not an economist but it is commonsense. This appears to be an effective solution. Now, we cannot avoid looking at the commercialization of the refineries. You mentioned the previous governments pumping money into the refineries but nothing worked. So, the only way out as some others have suggested is to partly privatise the refineries.

Moves towards that end were made in the past but the staff of the refineries protested, they didn’t agree. There is nothing wrong with partial privatisation because the private sector is better placed to ensure the productivity and survival of the enterprises. And if we privatise, transfer of technology would come, and government has to find a way of encouraging the private sector to invest in this area. They would borrow money and involve foreign experts,; this costs money but if we can produce the bulk of what we need, that would substantially bring down the price. I heard an expert explaining that the removal of the subsidy had one important positive effect and that was the reduction of the quantity of fuel we have been using which means that the fuel subsidy encouraged the smuggling out of our fuel to neighbours. This means security should be tight also since everyone is feeling the pinch. We all have to rise and wake up to make sure the right things are done.

The Supreme Court just delivered judgment on the presidential election issues but some people were disappointed with the judiciary…

Only the learned people, lawyers can explain the merits and demerits of what had happened. But what commonsense tells me is that the good side of the Supreme Court judgment is that the game of waiting and uncertainties that we witnessed is gone. As a layman and a senior citizen, what we should focus on now is to support the government to retrieve Nigeria from the present quagmire.

The population has exploded, the needs have grown more, and improvement of electricity, for instance, is very necessary because industries and small businesses need power to operate. Therefore, the energy sector should be improved. Happily enough, in that sector, the distribution sector has substantially improved. The recent law that authorizes states to take part in power generation also makes sense because it would involve people who know how to go about it. On the question of the economy, the President has initiated some commendable measures but when something goes out of order for a long time, getting it back cannot be without pains.

That is what we have to live with and learn the lessons and remember not to let things go awry the way our system has gone. The Supreme Court is the final port of call in this domain; the rights and wrongs of it, I leave that to lawyers. Let us join hands and defer to what the Supreme Court has done. I belong to nobody. I am an elder. What we all love to see is the smooth running of the system so that people can freely move about in search of their needs. I don’t want to involve myself in the arguments of people. Before the presidential case went to the Supreme Court, the day the judgment was passed at the lower court, they took twelve and a half hours to scrutinize every petition. For me, that was impressive. Since they considered everything and came to their judgment, which was challenged at the Supreme Court, under our system that is the right thing to do. The candidates (Abubakar Atiku of the PDP and Peter Obi of the LP among others), by going through due process, saved us a lot of headaches. So, whatever the weakness, we must move forward. After all, in four years’ time, another opportunity would come and, in the contest, only one party would win. Our focus now should be to retrieve the country from its difficulties which cannot be handled by one team or a few individuals. We should all join hands and plan from the lessons of the past.

Many have faulted Tinubu, saying his appointments are pro Yoruba and Muslim. Do you think he is biased in the appointments as alleged?

I don’t want to take sides; we are running a federation of many ethnic groups. One of the problems of this country is tribalism and religion. But it is the same God we are serving. Somebody must win. The rules that culminate in that are sometimes violated. So, whatever the case, as far as the appointments are concerned, I would concern myself with the military. The appointments of the Service Chiefs were well thought out because of the experience of these officers. I can talk of the CDS and the Chief of Army Staff. They both had experience in the North-East. For instance, the Chief of Army Staff was a GOC here in Kaduna and we saw what he did in Birnin Gwari and some parts of Northern Kaduna. With the new strategy, if government supports them as they indicated that they would, we would see a graphic change.

Some of the appointments I saw were fairly well served. What we Nigerians must recognise and accept is placing people on critical jobs based on expertise and competence. I agree that the Federal Character principle is necessary but merit should be number one because, at the end of the day, getting their job done is the important thing. The President has been in office hardly six months. I think he should be given one or two years, anybody who notices any mistake is free to write or speak to his or her parliamentarian or get to the aides. The President appears to have a listening ear. This is what we want because a tree cannot make a forest. The other side is that, given the enormity of the challenges he inherited, he is not a magician. We have to give him time to prove himself. In our system, even if you make an angel or a prophet the President, he would be criticized because of the needs around him.

Let us zero on fixing the economy so that the unemployed youths can get jobs. We should fix agriculture because, before oil, that was the domain that sustained this country. There are solid minerals in every state, so the needful things must be done. For example, the President made a statement about ECOWAS role in Niger but people raised their voices against it because we too at home have banditry problems like Niger. Some of the countries in ECOWAS are supporting Niger. Instead of threatening force, real democracy will pay better. Addressing the cause of the problem would remove the symptoms. So, he made a U-turn and the Niger Head of State convinced the world that he meant well, appointed a civilian as his prime minister and, since then, things have been quiet. So force should be used as a last resort because we are all brothers.

There was a call made in Saudi Arabia calling on Muslim countries to a meeting including Nigeria to discuss the issue of the Israel-Hamas uprising.

I haven’t heard that, has it got to do with the problems in Gaza? Well, that problem is complex. The UN is solidly involved. Countries can offer assistance either in material form or advice without attending any conference. But the Israelis and the people of Gaza are our friends. I would support any move by Nigeria to contribute to the reconciliation and that reconciliation can be arrived at through purposeful dialogue. We have seen that the present issues started when Hamas invaded a part of Israel and killed some people and Israel is counter-attacking. The solution is dialogue, not threat. What that dialogue can take, I don’t know, but clearly, there must be some concessions here and there. So, not having details of the data involved, I cannot say more than that. If there was a call for Nigeria not to go, it was a view from people as advice because the agenda was not spelled out. We should not jump to conclusions. The people of Gaza and Israel need the support they can get from the world, jointly and severally, to lead to a permanent solution. The bottom of the problem, I think some of it is land matter. Even within families, you know land disputes can cause misunderstanding. It is not a religious conflict as such because, in both Israel and Gaza, there are Muslims Christians and Jews. On the Israel side, the majority are Jews. They have some Muslims and Christians also being the Holy Land. Purposeful dialogue would give each party a chance to deliberate on what is needed and of course, making concessions were necessary.

Some people fear this can lead to the Third World War.

No, I don’t think so because the UN and friends of both Israel and Gaza are working. Shedding more blood is uncalled for and is not necessary. Third World War would affect the whole world. In the First and Second World Wars, many people died. War no matter how tough is usually resolved on the conference table. So, let us give peace a chance.